Heidi van den Brink, member of the board at healthcare organisation Marente: 'Sometimes I pretend I no longer know something.'

What have you learned that you would rather not have known?
That people are not always honest with you. When I receive a compliment, I sometimes wonder: do you really mean this, or are you telling me what you think I want to hear? When I was still working as an operating theatre assistant, we would sometimes walk out of a meeting together and say to each other: well, we are definitely not going to do that, what a ridiculous decision. That awareness sometimes gets in my way now.

Which mistake or disappointment taught you the most?
That was during a recruitment process where all the warning signs were red. The first interview was unpleasant and did not feel right. Yet I was offered the job. It was a significant step on paper, but the collaboration failed completely. I promised myself I would never ignore my gut instinct again.

Who or what has shaped you most as a leader?
One of my former managers. I once asked him if I could do a course. He replied: alright, you want to do a course in something you already know how to do. Is it not time you chose a serious programme? I never forgot that conversation. It led to me doing an MBA. I would never have dared to ask for that myself. I come from a kind, modest family where ambition was simply not a thing. Just keep your feet on the ground. My entire career sort of happened to me, starting as an operating theatre assistant. Studying at university was something I had never even dared to dream of. I always looked up to people who had studied. Suddenly, I was sitting among them.

What lesson did you take from that?
That it is okay to dream a little bigger for yourself.

What was your first job?
At a Chinese restaurant in Schoonhoven. I loved it. I learned to work hard and to toughen up. As a young blonde girl, you got all sorts of remarks thrown at you. You had to be able to handle that.

When did you need that resilience most?
When I started working as an operating theatre assistant. This was at a time when surgeons were almost treated like gods in hospitals. A lot of what happened then would not be acceptable now. I experienced some awful situations. One surgeon, for example, was preparing the body of a patient who was under anaesthetic. The patient had a physical reaction while unconscious. The surgeon kept staring straight at me to see how I would react. I did not know where to look. It was deeply uncomfortable. I was eighteen and had only been working there for a few weeks. Horrible. I am glad there is much more attention now for this kind of transgressive behaviour. I still find the differences between men and women difficult. The pay gap, but also the fact that as a woman you do not feel safe on the street. I have daughters of thirty and twenty, and I still worry about them sometimes.

How do you contribute to a better balance between men and women?
In healthcare, we work with small contracts, so there is a lot of part-time work. I try to challenge that. Women who work very few hours are not financially independent. I try to raise that topic within the organisation, but many women do not want to think about it. They only take action once they are confronted with the consequences. It is always wise to have a contract that allows you to increase your hours if needed.

How do you bring out the best in others?
The most important lesson I have learned is that you need to know yourself in order to understand others. If you know how you work, what triggers you, what irritates you or energises you, you will better understand why others behave the way they do and what they need. That differs per individual. Some people need an extra push. Others need to be slowed down or challenged with questions.

Which achievement are you most proud of?
That I progressed from operating theatre assistant to board member and supervisor. Working in a hospital meant entering an academic world, and I developed a strong urge to prove myself there, even though that was not how I was raised. I wanted to show that I could do it. I have always looked for challenges.

What was the most daunting step?
Starting out on my own as an interim manager. I was in my late thirties and did not really know what I wanted, but I did know that I wanted to learn more. Working as an interim means your learning curve becomes very steep. You have a clear objective: to deliver for your client. I learned a great deal from that. I always found the combination of a young family and ambition difficult. My daughters turned out wonderfully, but you constantly feel as though you are falling short. Not because my children ever said so, but because of the judgement from other mothers at the school gate. Oh, is that a full-time job you do? They never ask my male colleagues that. It still happens. I am a grandmother now, and women ask me: do you have a fixed childcare day then? No, I say, you know what kind of work I do. Then comes: oh, I could never do that. The pressure from other women never really stops.

What have you learned that you would rather not have known?
That people are not always honest with you. It does not feel that way to me, but people do experience a hierarchical relationship. So when I receive a compliment, I sometimes wonder whether it is genuine or simply said to please me. My best management training actually came when I was still an operating theatre assistant. We would leave meetings saying: well, we are not going to do that, what a stupid decision. Yet none of us had spoken up during the meeting itself. That awareness sometimes works against me now.

How do you break through that?
By making myself vulnerable. By sharing my own insecurities and experiences. I try to create space for dissent and make sure people are not punished for it. Some managers say: once I know something, I cannot unknow it. That is not how I work. Sometimes I deliberately act as if I no longer know something. Otherwise it no longer feels safe for people to share things with me in confidence.

Do people ever see you as a rebel or a troublemaker?
A rebel, certainly. Maybe not so much within Marente, but definitely at a regional or national level. I tend to say what I think. I would love to be a bit more mysterious, but that is simply not who I am. Through coaching I have learned that what I do is actually effective, precisely because I am myself and because I am transparent.

Which mistake or disappointment taught you the most?
That same recruitment process where all the warning signs were there. The first interview was unpleasant and did not feel right. To my surprise, I was invited to the next round. Then a comment was made along the lines of: I am curious to see how this collaboration will go. But I had already decided I wanted to leave my previous role, and I wanted the job. It was a great step, but the collaboration failed completely. I promised myself I would never do that again.

What is your biggest dream?
More equality between men and women. About ten years ago, I applied for a position on a two-person executive board. There was already a woman on that board, and I went for coffee with her to see how she felt about it. She said: you do not seriously think they will appoint two women at the top of this organisation, do you? You saw that much less back then. Thankfully, you now see it more often, two or even three women at the top. But there is still room for improvement. Diversity in organisations in general matters. Men and women genuinely bring different things to the table, and that is precisely what makes it so valuable. I do not have bigger dreams than that. I feel deeply privileged.